Specializations, Training, and So Forth for Jedi/Sith

Alright. So I brought this up in dev chat, but I’m putting it up here to keep better record of it, and to get further feedback from players to see your stances on this. It’s a loose plan regarding how things can eventually be done regarding how specialization (Guardian, Consular, Sentinel) work and how it’s achieved, actual progression of training as a Jedi/Sith (Initiate > Padawan > Knight > Master), and other stuff.

So first off: Training progression. The idea I had for this was that people would start as they normally would. Obviously people have access to baseline force abilities if they wish to use them, train them up, and eventually get the quest from Jhoren to open up Lightsaber construction. But currently, past that, it’s just a matter of playing, RPing your training (if you actually go for the Jedi/Sith rather than remain neutral), etc. Here’s a loose method of how it’s gonna change:

After the Lightsaber quest from Jhoren, you’ll continue leveling up your skills to reach another marker, likely start/continue with going through RP training to pass the time, etc. But eventually you will be able to take another quest from Jhoren that will essentially “tag” your character as being ready to be taken on as a Padawan. From here, PCs of Knight or Master rank will be able to select a Padawan through an item or target command (the method doesn’t matter much, just explaining loose mechanics). The Padawan will then be bound to the Knight/Master training them. The RP would then continue as it always has, moving through training and otherwise, but this time the Knight/Master will be able to periodically grant “tokens” to show the progression of training for the Padawan. There will be limitations on how frequently these can be given, obviously, to avoid just suddenly jumping up really fast. Once the Padawan has been granted a certain number of tokens (TBD), the Knight/Master can then “tag” them to take “The Trials”.

Now we move on to a continuation of the above, but also explain how specializations will work. Jhoren then becomes available once again for a longer quest that is “The Trials” for the character in question. They would go through it as any other quest, and upon completion, will be able to finally select their Specialization (Guardian, Consular, Sentinel). At the same time, they would be granted the Knight rank and be able to take on a Padawan of their own. Now, I also know people may wonder about how a Knight becomes a Master. Given how huge of a deal that is, the idea is that will be DM granted only, through RP.

As a whole, with this method, things can progress rather smoothly while still remaining immersive and slow. Likewise, it still keeps that focus (among Force users) on the Jedi/Sith themselves, in terms of higher power. Those who remain neutral and can’t/won’t choose a side will obviously still have access to everything, but will not have that access to those greater Force abilities acquired through having a Specialization. But that’s always meant to be that choice, regardless. Do you choose a side and have to stick to and follow their rules, or choose to do what you wish, but with a lower level of ability than those with proper training?

In the end, this is all entirely up to debate and reworking over time. It’s not an immediate thing, but as a whole, to do it another way would likely lose out on a great deal of the immersion involved, and in the case of choosing a side, make it effectively meaningless. So feel free to toss your thoughts in here. It’s already been mentioned that the actual training process of the Padawan from the Knight/Master could use some refinement, for instance.

I personally play a Padawan focusing on becoming a Consular. I see a few things I wanna point out personally.

  1. I am mildly against mechanically officiating training because while its a nice thought, if you give out too many tokens by accident and your not ready to make then an official Jedi and they take it, story over right then and there. This should remain entirely up to the Teacher when/if they take a student, not a mechanical requirement.

  2. Specializations SHOULD exist. A Consular is not a Guardian and wouldn’t be trained as one. If you make that choice and go that route…then that’s what you are.

  3. The Trials I would prefer DMs to actually manage and determine as the Trials are generally run by the Jedi Council, not just the Master. Thus there should be DMs overseeing if not entirely managing this.

Just my two cents.

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Yeah. Overall, the big thing as well is to shift as much away from DM involvement in any of this, as possible. Obviously initial stuff will need a little involvement (like mechanically situating people as Knights/Masters), but after that, it’s a system meant to avoid such DM requirements. Things like DM granted force abilities will still be entirely them, as will Knight-to-Master transition as pointed out. But overall, just mentioning this stuff to also keep the furthest away from DMs as possible. Haha!

Well I do agree, but Trials will need DMs, especially if sticking to cannon lore. Each trial is different and catered to the Jedi, namely to prevent cheating lol. The rest like choosing a Padawan and such…should never be mechanically done.

Most knights choose their Padawans, having one given to them isn’t normal really. The council more has to approve of the Padawan to become one in the first place if they were not already in the order, but even then it’s a talk between the master and the council.

The main thing I see here, and this is to future proof things, is that it focuses on the Jedi. What about sith options for those who wish to go down that route?

Honestly? I hate this idea.
It is locking everything behind jedi rp.
There are other force traditions, locking you out of advancement in a force class because you are not part of the Jedi stuff is not healthy for the server in my opinion.
Training should be a roleplay thing not a mechanical thing, it also puts too much power in the hands of the knights to control who can and can not advance in force powers.
My suggestion would be have the specialization still exist, because I think it is important mechanically to have some kind of limitation on the highest level of some abilities, however it should not relate to the light saber quest at all (relating it to that quest further enforces you should play a jedi, and should use a lightsaber), and could possibly just be an option that opens up at a specific skill level in the related force abilities, Alter for Consular, Control for Guardian, and Sense for Sentinel, their specializations can still be spread around but this give specific goals to attain to specialize.
But really, the players should define the jedi rp, not the mechanics.

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King…this topic is specifically about the Jedi and Sith…yes we understand you want some things for non Jedi and Sith…but hitting every single topic that is about them and screaming that you hate it…doesn’t mean were not still gonna plan things for those that DO want to play it.

The topic is about mechanical enforcement of jedi/sith rp and gating things behind it, which is entirely what my post was about was that jedi/sith rp should be rp and not mechanics.

Actually most of the Force advancements you ARE going to find…do ACTUALLY require training from someone…anyone with that kinda training that will teach you IS actually a Jedi or a Sith……so again…makes entire sense that few of the greater powers might be gated behind…you know…rping a much more powerful class…that’s like saying you wanna have all the Paladin powers and perks…but no, you don’t wanna actually BE a paladin because you know…you don’t like it…but totally want all the power…no.

Completely different issue, or are you saying you must play a jedi/sith to be a skilled force user?
And Jedi should not be a “Much More Powerful Class” Otherwise it is just what -most- people will want to play because why would you want to play something that is just inferior by design.
This system is going to keep the problem of everyone wants to be a jedi and make it much worse because it will make more mandatory to be relevant if you start locking “Powerful abilities” Behind being one.

That’s exactly what I was getting at with that, yeah. The Paladin comparison is a good one at that. As a whole, the idea is that those who aren’t part of either Order will not have the same training, which was already meant to be the intent from the start. This is more just the way to go about doing so. As for what you mentioned, Ryudo, it wasn’t that Padawans are just given to a Knight/Master. It’s specifically that they get a variable toggled on them that makes them available to be taken on by a Knight/Master. It still ultimately comes down to the Knight/Master’s choice. Likewise, I’ve been specifically saying Jedi/Sith from the start. There are some liberties that will ultimately need to be taken in regards to lore accuracy, but also to remain as close as possible. In that sense, the Jhoren stuff will ultimately be a neutral thing of sorts. Or it could very well come down to The Trials being a very specific NPC relating to the Jedi or Sith Orders, depending. It’s all open to change.

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heres a hint, it doesn’t matter what server you play…every server is gonna have a group that appears or is stronger then everyone, on Arelith it is Half Dragons, on Ravenloft its Vampires, both generally being priests/Druids or WMs.

In SWLOR its gonna be Jedi/Sith (when Sith get to be playable). This is a reality your gonna have to come to accept. Like it or hate it, Jedi are GOING to be the focal point of a server that caters to…STAR WARS. Which means Jedi vs Sith to 98% of players.

The main reason I bring up sith is that they have a much different system for trianing then Jedi and would need a different progression system. An sith apprentice for example is the same as Jedi initiate - knight with much more involved then Jedi in ways but has less ranking up tests then jedi

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Yeah. I know the differences myself, but again it comes down to needing a way to properly mechanically represent it while remaining as close as we can, within the confines of scripting and mechanics. Liberties will need to be taken in that regard. Technically, already with the Lightsaber quest, it’s not lore accurate at all, but it’s close enough that things don’t feel totally off.

As for the Jedi/Sith vs non-Jedi/Sith discussion, this probably isn’t the place for it. But ultimately, it comes down even my previous point. Jedi/Sith are the two major Force factions, and while there are other smaller ones, they’ve never had the same capacity for training as those who go through full and proper training in the main Orders. The idea of this is also not at all to pull away from non-Force users. The Force abilities and everything are already getting put in, regardless of this discussion. As are specializations. If anything, this will bring DOWN the powerful Force users, as to reach that higher level of power, they will still require following specific rules of whichever Order they are involved in.

And it’s not blocking neutral Force users, either. It’s just meaning that those unattached to either side will inherently not be able to reach the same level of ability.

So your interpretation is go Jedi or be inferior and accept it?
That is bad game design, and frankly unhealthy for the server.
It isn’t an appearance of power, it is actual mechanical power being locked behind playing something specific.
But since 99% of the server already plays force users might as well make the server focus on them and giving them special things, and if you are not interested in that I guess you better just be locked out of things so that everyone can focus on the force users.

To put this in perspective, let’s say I locked the ability to craft anything above tier 2 behind joining a guild and specializing in a single craft, also you can not be part of any other specialization, and you have to be trained by another pc.
Would you say this is healthy for the server? Especially a low pop one.
Or what if we locked dash behind doing training because it is not easy to actually run like that it, it takes a lot of time effort and training to do so.
Gating abilities is bad by design, it is worse when you force people to play something specific.

And to close this out, even if 99% of the people think star wars is jedi/sith fighting to the death, there is so much more to the setting, and you are doing a disservice to the community by ignoring that. It doesn’t encourage people to go learn more and expand their horizons. It tells them to stick into the same mold and never grow because that is what is catered to.

Edit
And to further expand on the paladin analogy.
What if you wanted to play a paladin but were told to level up past 10 you had to join a specific order. There are plenty of other lore accurate orders, and even paladins who don’t have an order, but you have to do it this way because the arbitrary rules system says so.
Would you find that fun or well designed? I would not.

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Well I can kinda see using your current Jedi layout how to do things but it will ultimately be up to how you do the sith themselves. There is the academy on korraban and going by that they would have the equivalent of the initiate there, which would rank up once selected by a sith Lord but that is where things will differ. Becoming a lord is pretty hard as you would need to do something to stand out with or just kill your master and take their place. Both are a progression check so you could make apprentice the padawan-knight phase with larger emphasis on tokens and maybe a special token to show they are recognised as doing something impactful enough in the sith lords eyes to join their ranks, or just simply eventually kill their master.

Also, regarding ranks themselves, what do they mean within their respective orders from both an rp and mechanical standpoint?

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So, as a whole, Masters themselves won’t really have much mechanical purpose. Like Knights, they will be able to train Padawans as well. It’s very possible they may serve a purpose, but nothing is really known right now. Something to consider later on. Overall, it’s more meant to be that way from an RP standpoint more than anything else.

Also, just to clear something up, just in case: When I say Padawan/Knight/Master, I mean more as an OOC method of determining the ranks. IC, it would obviously come down to the equivalent of whichever side you’re on. Just easiest to use that as it’s the most well known.

Now I guess I can kinda add something there, most councils are compromised of masters/lords, could that rank be used to join their respective councils and help determine things from a more local level? The Jedi for example had lower councils for enclaves and a grand council which is run by the Jedi grandmaster, I imagine players wouldn’t join the grand council but the local one could be player run in time to make the factions even more self sufficient?

It’s always possible, but not really something I could answer. That gets into a bit more detail outside of what this particular thread is about. More something to ask Zunath or a DM about. I’m just a dev. Haha! Implementation would ultimately come down to us, mind you. But given even reaching Master will come down to DM involvement, going further towards councils and the like will still ultimately be in the DMs’ ballpark.